Israel: We Are At War

[Drach]

How can the American/European people sleep when their taxes are sent as bombs to kill the people of Gaza?


View attachment 97441

I think our tax dollars are wasted on current Israel administration.
Can we be more honest now?

 

[brycejones]

How can the Iranian people sleep when their taxes are sent as rockets and guns to kill the people of Israel?

@Shervan360

Lots of dirty hands in the middle east. Hamas is a horrible organization propped up by Iran.

The sad truth is the extremists in both Israel and Gaza feed off of each other to maintain power.

 

[raildogg]

People are equivocating Hamas to Israel? More defense of Israel in a thread about Israel's genocide. And Iran is simply a victim of American/Israeli aggression. Regardless, I am not surprised by this.

Instead of putting sanctions on Israel for genociding people, an ongoing genocide in fact, America is putting sanctions on Iran for responding to Israel's illegal attack on its consulate. This shows the utter failed and hypocritical American foreign policy. I am sure someone here will defend this.

 

[raildogg]

Pro-genocide American politicians are continuing prove prove their complicity in Israel’s genocide. I hope there is a trial in the future for these people for the funding, coordinating and covering for Israel. And now, these pro-genocide American politicians are going to attack anyone in America who stands in the way of their favorite country.

From Electronic Intifada:

Tom Cotton, the bellicose US senator from Arkansas, is not satisfied with pushing to employ the US military against Black Lives Matter and antifa protesters. He’s now encouraging vigilante violence against Gaza genocide activists.

On Monday, he proposed throwing protesters in American cities off bridges. He urged people stuck in traffic related to Gaza genocide protests to take violent action.

“I encourage people who get stuck behind the pro-Hamas mobs blocking traffic: take matters into your own hands to get them out of the way.”

Speaking to Fox News about protesters blocking traffic in demonstrations from California to Illinois to New York and elsewhere, Cotton said, “If something like this happened in Arkansas on a bridge there, let’s just say I think there’d be a lot of very wet criminals that have been tossed overboard, not by law enforcement but by the people whose road they’re blocking.”

This guy is simply exposing US policy towards non-Western people of the world and since Israel is their favorite country, their hatred of Palestinians and pro-Palestinians is even stronger.

And the US doing more to show its heavy pro-Israel bias:

Meanwhile, Tuesday, the House of Representatives passed a resolution deeming the chant “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” to be anti-Semitic.

So this is only further proving what people already knew: America is an enemy of the Palestinian people.

I don't see Democrats condemning this so I can assume they must be OK with this as well.

 

[raildogg]

Regarding Gaza, there is no difference between the democrats and the republicans.

Absolutely, both are heavily pro-Israel and will allow Israel to do anything it wants. If they allow Israel's genocide and give it more money and weapons, that means there is no limit for their support. Going forward anything America says about human rights will be automatically disregarded.

 

[brycejones]

People are equivocating Hamas to Israel? More defense of Israel in a thread about Israel's genocide.

Are the goals of the two any different? Do their leaders not constantly demonize their opponents in order to create a feeling a fear that allows them to maintain power?

Yes there is a vast gulf in resources and Israel’s response to the October 7th attacks has is a war crime doesn’t change how we got to this point though which is assholes on both sides keeping the conflict going for personal gain.

 

[Shervan360]

The sad truth is the extremists in both Israel and Gaza feed off of each other to maintain power.

I Agree.

 

[Shervan360]

The US and European people are responsible for every drop of blood spilled in the Middle East because their taxes are spent and sent to Israel.

The weapons used by the Arab countries and Israel are produced by which countries? USA and Europe.

 

[brycejones]

I guess people in the middle east have no agency. Who should take them over to deliver freedom?

 

[Shervan360]

I guess people in the middle east have no agency. Who should take them over to deliver freedom?

Half of the countries in the Middle East are supported by the West and the rest by the East. Because the Middle East has many resources.
West and East help dictators stay in power to loot resources.

 

[brycejones]

Half of the countries in the Middle East are supported by the West and the rest by the East. Because the Middle East has many resources.
West and East help dictators stay in power to loot resources.

So the US and Europe are not solely responsible for sending arms to the region?

Who gives weapons to Hamas, Hezbollah, the Hoothies, Iran etc?

 

[eelw]

Sigh the aid bill for Israel is to replenish iron dome and not for offensive weapons

 

[amenx]

Sigh the aid bill for Israel is to replenish iron dome and not for offensive weapons

Yeah, their 2000lb bombs were delivered only recently in a previous aid package. Just in time for their expected Rafah offensive.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/29/us-weapons-israel-gaza-war/

 

[Hulk]

I'm confused. What exactly does Hamas want from Israel? Or vice-versa. What ends this conflict one and for all? I realize there is a lot of contested history but this is where we are. How does the killing stop permanently? I see lots of protestors but I don't know what the demands are exactly? It seems like they want a cease fire. If that happens does that mean there won't be more attacks in the future?

 

[mikeymikec]

I'm confused. What exactly does Hamas want from Israel? Or vice-versa. What ends this conflict one and for all? I realize there is a lot of contested history but this is where we are. How does the killing stop permanently? I see lots of protestors but I don't know what the demands are exactly? It seems like they want a cease fire. If that happens does that mean there won't be more attacks in the future?

I'd say with an almost 100% certainty that the protests are happening because most sane people are not happy with genocide occurring anywhere ever.

IMO: As for a permanent cease-fire deal between Hamas and Israel, as things currently stand I don't see it happening ever. Israel wants to eradicate Palestine due of a delusional level of entitlement (the Law of Return, a symptom of Zionism), and Hamas is a bunch of extremists that want to see Israel burnt to the ground.

At best there will be a temporary cease-fire, then Israel will carry on with its pre-Oct-7th plan to steadily eradicate Palestine while the rest of the world pretends that it gives a shit about Palestinians.

Realistically, the absolute best case scenario would be if the Israeli government is kicked to the curb by the electorate and replaced by a more moderate government that is interested in a true two-state solution that allows Palestinians to call the shots on their turf and Israel stays on their side of the fence. Funding and political pressure is applied to marginalise Hamas to the point of irrelevance, and then a mutually decent agreement is hammered out between Israel and Palestine.

While it would be nice if the US, UK and probably others would stop arming Israel, a far-right government with a hard-on for genocide is difficult to stop without a war.

 

[emperus]

I'm confused. What exactly does Hamas want from Israel? Or vice-versa. What ends this conflict one and for all? I realize there is a lot of contested history but this is where we are. How does the killing stop permanently? I see lots of protestors but I don't know what the demands are exactly? It seems like they want a cease fire. If that happens does that mean there won't be more attacks in the future?

I think you are transposing Hamas with the Palestinians. Most of the protests are in support of Palestinians and not Hamas. To answer your question, put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian. What would you want for yourself and your family?

 

[emperus]

I'd say with an almost 100% certainty that the protests are happening because most sane people are not happy with genocide occurring anywhere ever.

IMO: As for a permanent cease-fire deal between Hamas and Israel, as things currently stand I don't see it happening ever. Israel wants to eradicate Palestine due of a delusional level of entitlement (the Law of Return, a symptom of Zionism), and Hamas is a bunch of extremists that want to see Israel burnt to the ground.

At best there will be a temporary cease-fire, then Israel will carry on with its pre-Oct-7th plan to steadily eradicate Palestine while the rest of the world pretends that it gives a shit about Palestinians.

Realistically, the absolute best case scenario would be if the Israeli government is kicked to the curb by the electorate and replaced by a more moderate government that is interested in a true two-state solution that allows Palestinians to call the shots on their turf and Israel stays on their side of the fence. Funding and political pressure is applied to marginalise Hamas to the point of irrelevance, and then a mutually decent agreement is hammered out between Israel and Palestine.

While it would be nice if the US, UK and probably others would stop arming Israel, a far-right government with a hard-on for genocide is difficult to stop without a war.

The more I think about it the more I realize Israel will never let a 2 state solution happen. This status quo of constant aggression and counter aggression is the best position for them as long as they continue to have military superiority and the Iron Dome. It allows them an excuse to control the area, the ability to continuously take more land and curb Palestinian growth.

Nothing will change unless the US decides the status quo is untenable and takes it's boot off the scale. I think it begins by sanctioning the illegal settlers who at times are US citizens.

I'm very negative and down on the situation and what it portends for US security.

 

[Hulk]

I think you are transposing Hamas with the Palestinians. Most of the protests are in support of Palestinians and not Hamas. To answer your question, put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian. What would you want for yourself and your family?

Isn't Hamas the government that the Palestinians voted in or am I wrong there?

 

[Hulk]

I'd say with an almost 100% certainty that the protests are happening because most sane people are not happy with genocide occurring anywhere ever.

IMO: As for a permanent cease-fire deal between Hamas and Israel, as things currently stand I don't see it happening ever. Israel wants to eradicate Palestine due of a delusional level of entitlement (the Law of Return, a symptom of Zionism), and Hamas is a bunch of extremists that want to see Israel burnt to the ground.

At best there will be a temporary cease-fire, then Israel will carry on with its pre-Oct-7th plan to steadily eradicate Palestine while the rest of the world pretends that it gives a shit about Palestinians.

Realistically, the absolute best case scenario would be if the Israeli government is kicked to the curb by the electorate and replaced by a more moderate government that is interested in a true two-state solution that allows Palestinians to call the shots on their turf and Israel stays on their side of the fence. Funding and political pressure is applied to marginalise Hamas to the point of irrelevance, and then a mutually decent agreement is hammered out between Israel and Palestine.

While it would be nice if the US, UK and probably others would stop arming Israel, a far-right government with a hard-on for genocide is difficult to stop without a war.

Again, I'm not well versed on this subject but I had heard that Israel had given full control to the Gaza strip to the Palestinians in 2005 and then the Palestinians voted Hamas to be their leadership/government? What was Israel doing from 2005 to Oct. 7 to eradicate the Palestinians?

So if Israel had given the Gaza strip or some part of Israel to the Palestinians and it was called Palestine today everything would be peaceful?

 

[IronWing]

Israel never gave full control of the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians. Israel has continuously controlled every aspect of governance in the territory, turning the strip into a prison camp.

 

[amenx]

The more I think about it the more I realize Israel will never let a 2 state solution happen. This status quo of constant aggression and counter aggression is the best position for them as long as they continue to have military superiority and the Iron Dome. It allows them an excuse to control the area, the ability to continuously take more land and curb Palestinian growth.

Yep exactly. The Occupied Territories are not considered as such but indivisible parts of Israel to the majority of Israelis. RW govts made sure to accelerate the (illegal) settlements to the point of no return. The 2 state solution seen as the only viable way to peace by the US and rest of world has been a non-starter to Israel for several decades now. The US knows that but is just giving it lip service.

 

[Brainonska511]

Isn't Hamas the government that the Palestinians voted in or am I wrong there?

Yes, you are wrong. Hamas won a plurality in the last election nearly 18 years ago, largely as a protest vote against a governing party that repeatedly failed to deliver on promises, and Hamas has used that election to effectively seize power and stop all subsequent elections. They hardly have a legitimate claim to governing power in Gaza.

 

[brycejones]

Isn't Hamas the government that the Palestinians voted in or am I wrong there?

The last election was more than 18 years ago. Hard to call it the people’s choice when you stop having elections for that long.

 

[mikeymikec]

Again, I'm not well versed on this subject but I had heard that Israel had given full control to the Gaza strip to the Palestinians in 2005 and then the Palestinians voted Hamas to be their leadership/government? What was Israel doing from 2005 to Oct. 7 to eradicate the Palestinians?

So if Israel had given the Gaza strip or some part of Israel to the Palestinians and it was called Palestine today everything would be peaceful?

Here is a map of what Palestine looked like in 1946:

I'm not entirely sure if a history lesson is in order but I've put it in spoiler tags if you want it:

Spoiler

The region that is being talked about has had a pretty chaotic history. Israel existed then basically no longer existed for over a millennium; Jewish people in the region known as Palestine - which is basically current Palestine and Israel as one land mass, e.g. the above map.

The historic demographics of Palestine indicate that Jewish people were an absolute minority in the majority of recorded history in that region:

Demographic history of Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jewish people have been the target of anti-semitism just about everywhere on the planet since god knows when. They've been shunned in many societies for various reasons, excluded from most jobs and for example forced into jobs like money-lending and then shunned for always being money lenders. A gigantic shit sandwich for them. Then along came the notion of Zionism, late nineteenth Century: The idea that Jewish people would be better off all moving somewhere and running their own state, thus guaranteeing their rights and no longer being treated as second-class humans. A notion that at face value I sympathise with, however, since land does not just suddenly appear, they would have to pick somewhere and they got it into their heads that the place their ancestors lived like over 1000 years before is where they ought to be. A place where Palestinians already lived.

So Zionism resulted in the Jewish demographic of Palestine shifting from 3% in 1800 to 8% in 1890 (start of Zionism) to 32% by 1947 (much of which was refugee traffic post WW2). The British were still administering Palestine up to 1947 and various plans had been brought up and shelved (world wars tend to do that), but wanted to get out.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This UN proposal basically gave away two thirds of Palestinian land to Jewish people who only made up 32% of the population, unsurprisingly this was not a popular plan in Palestine, but "civilised" nations didn't want to take Jewish refugees so they ought to be dumped somewhere else to be someone else's problem, plus Zionism made Palestine a more attractive target to Jewish people.

This is what Palestine officially looks like today:

However, this is what are considered to be Palestinian-controlled areas:

Palestine has been subjected to an apartheid regime for a long time now, for example:

Israel is also fine colonising Palestine, after all they need breathing room for the 'Law of Return':

Israeli settlement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israeli settler violence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Palestinian police are not empowered to stop this violence, to ensure that Palestinians' rights are protected.

More info about the apartheid regime:

Israel and apartheid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[amenx]

Isn't Hamas the government that the Palestinians voted in or am I wrong there?

The Pals are divided. The official govt of the Palestinians is in the West Bank (The Palestinian National Authority) and headed by Mahmoud Abbas. That is the govt recognized by most of the world. They are at odds with Hamas (controlling Gaza) whom Israel supported to divide the Pals and ultimately prevent the establishment of a Pal state.

History of Hammas (with vital context that is often not included in MSM):

Page 158 - Israel: We Are At War

Page 158 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com